Are you Empowering or Micromanaging? EP53 W/ Jennifer Jones

jennifer jones augurian interview headshot


Jennifer Jones, the VP of Marketing at TIDI Products LLC, brings over two decades of experience in medical devices and diverse sales and marketing roles. Beyond being a seasoned marketer, Jones has discovered her passion for developing leaders, emphasizing the importance of empowering teams. In this insightful interview with Josh Becerra, she shares her unconventional journey, acknowledging that her career wasn’t a meticulously planned path but a series of valuable “stumbles.”

How I Work, Episode 53 with Jennifer jones

Jennifer delves into the intricacies of managing and leading teams. Furthermore, she discusses the evolving landscape of work, particularly in the post-pandemic virtual environment, and addresses the challenges of workplace PTSD. As she navigates the complexities of being a CMO, Jones offers profound insights into cultivating a culture of learning from failure and the critical role of marketing in influencing the entire organization. Plus:

  • The significance of understanding the balance between micromanaging and empowering individuals
  • CMO Longevity: the tips, tricks, and mistakes she’s encountered throughout her marketing career
  • Leadership Learning Resources: Jennifer shares her favorite books and resources on leading with confidence

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Transcription: How I Work, Episode 53 (jennifer jones)

Josh Becerra (00:01.282)
Hi everybody, this is Josh Becerra from Augurian. Super excited to have Jennifer Jones with me today for this episode. Thanks for being here. Jennifer Jones, VP of Marketing at TIDI, Products LLC has spent the last two decades in medical devices and various sales and marketing roles. While at the core, she is a marketer, she also has come to realize that her passion is for developing leaders.

Jennifer Jones (00:10.746)
Thanks for having me.

Josh Becerra (00:29.558)
Now outside of this work, she spends most of her time with her husband of almost 17 years and her six year old son. Thank you again for being here, Jennifer. I’m super excited about having this conversation.

Jennifer Jones (00:40.838)
Should be good, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Josh Becerra (00:42.942)
Yeah, so once you said, quote, “my career is a bit of a stumble.” And I know you have a double major in marketing and human resources from Madison. So can you share a bit of your story? Yeah, why a stumble?

Jennifer Jones (00:48.942)
Sure. What does that mean? Yeah. Yeah, so I actually, yeah, well, I ended up, I put this on the stomach. So it’s interesting. I actually really enjoyed math growing up. So when I went to college, I actually had intended to become a math teacher. But I took my first undergrad calculus class, and my teacher showed up with no shoes, and it’s like hair was all over the place. And I saw my life flash in front of my eyes and said, there’s no way I want to be a math teacher. And so then here comes the first stumble. That summer I took an economics class just to get caught, just to kind of get ahead of the game with credits. And I loved economics. And I don’t know if I loved it because it was so obvious and relatively simple or because there was like this whole dynamic of business. And so when I went back to UW in the fall, I actually decided to go into business school and always had a passion for the fun side of business. I knew I wasn’t gonna be in finance.

I didn’t really want to do accounting, even though it was intriguing. So I chose marketing. And then I think at the core, I was always just really intrigued by human resources, just the management of people. So that’s how I ended up with a double major. Spent a lot of time in the African-American studies group, did a lot of literature classes, ended up with a triple major just by default. So when I say it’s a stumble, it kind of was a stumble. And so when I left college, I ended up going to, you know, started interviewing with a number of different companies, ended up at that time it was Allegiance Healthcare, but the backstory is my mother had worked for them for like my entire life. And so it kind of made sense for me to go and work for this company. They wanted me to consider a sales role, but they wanted me to move to Michigan or to Minnesota. I didn’t want to move away from home. And so they found me a job. I know, I know it’s not terrible, but like I’ve been in Wisconsin, I want to be back home.

Josh Becerra (02:42.666)
Hey, we’re not that bad.

Jennifer Jones (02:48.63)
With family. And so they found me another job and it was an, it was kind of like a larger skilled customer service rep and in that, I love talking to customers every day, solving their problems before, you know, what I moved into inside sales, really preferred to be outside instead of in. So my boss said, stop blowing my travel budget. I moved into a field role again, another stumble. And then I had a mentor, that I think she kept hearing the passion I had for being with customers, solving their problems, but also the frustration of if the problem wasn’t already in my solution set, I was not empowered to go build it. And so she said, have you considered marketing? Which you would have thought, I would have thought about that given my undergrad, but no. So I said, sure, why not? And I started my marketing career. So I would say it’s been a bit of a stumble. I can’t tell you that I wrote this manifesto that I, you know at 43 years old, I want to be a VP of marketing, did not even think that far, but I would absolutely say I think my steps have absolutely been ordered, and I’m where I’m supposed to be, but I was not that brilliant when I started this stumble of a journey, so.

Josh Becerra (04:00.103)
Yeah, well, I will tell you that if this podcast was about me and I had to tell my career journey, it would be more than a stumble. It’s been riding some crazy waves, but we always find ourselves in the right place at the end of it. Yeah. So that’s awesome. So one of the things that we’ve talked about is leading and managing teams of marketers. And you said, well, I’ve always said that managing people is the second hardest thing to do in the world. The first is parenting because you can’t fire your kids. Hopefully, my kids aren’t listening right now. But when it comes to leading and managing a team of marketers, what about that do you love? Like, what is it about the challenge of leadership and especially around marketing that gets you out of bed every day?

Jennifer Jones (04:35.594)
100% accurate. Yep, agreed. 100%.

Yeah, so I would say, I would say like, I think the reason why I’ve landed specifically in the field of marketing is because it really allowed me to spend time with people and understand their latent needs and then figure out how I can help solve their problems. And it’s like this beautiful cycle of, you know, learning, giving, learning more, giving more. And so it’s just been, it’s been a beautiful ride. And I think as I started to progress in my career and began to manage folks doing that, I think.

It’s such a rewarding field, but it’s a hard field. And I think what I learned is that oftentimes, because marketing has so many different flavors, which I’m sure you’ve done a great job of kind of seeing in your own personal career, and we’ve seen it through your podcast, every marketer kind of navigates differently. And I think what has really helped dive into my passion is being able to go alongside an individual, identify the areas of strengths, but also areas of opportunity and really tap into what I believe is untapped potential. And so for me, as much as I love the function of marketing, what has been even more rewarding has been the development of leaders. And it is a hard job. It takes passion. And you should be selfless in the process, but there is nothing better than to see people that I have had the privilege of leading a decade ago and flourishing in their career. And knowing at some junction, I played a role in that. And so I think, regardless of how difficult it is, it’s been, I think, my life’s calling. But I will say that, very much like parenting, it takes a ton of patience. It takes a ton of patience. And it also takes a heart to…

Josh Becerra (06:43.214)

Jennifer Jones (06:49.086)
Extend yourself when you might not get it in return immediately and having to believe that at some point it will it will pay off And so I if you I always tell people like just because don’t chase leadership for the title You have to chase leadership for the passion of the work And if that’s not your jam like don’t go down that path because it’s it is it’s a lot to lead people Because I believe that in that I believe that I’ve been like people have been entrusted to me

And I don’t want to fail that gift of being able to kind of like be a part of their life story. And so if you’re not prepared to do that, it’s not something you should take lightly and sign up for. Just check that off your box.

I do love that you talked a little bit about how you just got to have, you got to have a little bit of faith and lean into the relationship, right? Uh, not knowing if it’s going to be reciprocated, right? That’s like that, that Renee Brown piece around vulnerability, right? You have to be willing to kind of put yourself out there and take that first step. And yeah, caring about, caring about the people and like wanting the best for them. I’ve also, I would agree, part of my job is when somebody from our organization who we’ve seen grow up and improve their skills and their craft go on to do other things in other organizations and do big things. And like that, just knowing that we had a little piece in that person’s kind of path, I see that as super rewarding, but yeah, if you don’t have that in you naturally that want to help others succeed. You know, there’s plenty of other jobs where you don’t have to manage people and lead people that you can do, make a good living, so go find those.

Jennifer Jones (08:35.845)
For sure.

That’s right. It’s funny. I just I just wrapped up reading infinite game and one thing that Simon Sinek talked about was as a leader like your task with teaching people technical skills like functional skills, but something I’ve never heard someone say is actually like developing human skills and to teach you like how to play nice in the sandbox how to navigate conflict how to overcome a life struggle and still push forward to do great things, like those are human skills. And I think a lot of times as leaders, we forget that. Like we’re managing a human being that comes with the human experience. And with that, I mean, you’re being tasked to do more than just teach someone how to do marketing. I could teach anybody how to market, but it’s like, how do you pull the whole package together? And I think that’s where true leadership is unlocked when you can do that well.

Josh Becerra (09:34.066)
Yeah, I love that. So when we were prepping for this, you had a chalkboard behind you on the wall that had like micromanaging on one end and absentee manager on the other end like a continuum. When I asked you about it, you said that micromanaging isn’t always bad. Can you talk a little bit about that continuum and your thoughts around micromanaging?

Jennifer Jones (09:40.418)
Yeah, no, it’s interesting. I, it was, it was a kind of a cross section of a book that I was reading. You have to watch. Um, it’s just, it’s a, it’s a daily journal that I’ve given to my leaders, it’s a companion to the broader book. And, in that section, there was a particular point that he talked about absentee leaders. And it was ironic that when I started reading that I had a couple of my leaders that were beginning to struggle a bit with that dynamic of, “Am I micromanaging or am I empowering this person?” And I actually think sometimes this is one of the areas that new leaders probably struggle with the most. Because I think we, you know, when, whenever you ask in an interview, I guarantee you, when you ask a person like, what type of manager do you not want? Nine times out of 10, someone’s going to say, I don’t want a micromanager. Right. And so I think, I think oftentimes as leaders, we come into this, this leadership role, especially when I’m new. And the last thing I want to do is be a micromanager.

Josh Becerra (10:45.73)
No micromanagers.

Jennifer Jones (10:56.41)
But I think what I’ve challenged my team about is sometimes what might be seen as micromanaging is what I actually call sausage making. What I mean by that is if you think about sausage making, for those that like sausage, most of us like the end product. No one wants to hang out when the sausage is being made, the ingredients, the different meats, the fat, all that things like that, that’s a process. And so a lot of people don’t like to be in the sausage making but I often tell my team, let me get in the sausage making because I don’t wanna get to the end and taste it and we could have added more salt early on. And so sometimes what might be seen as in the trenches, I’m coming alongside you to do the work. Some people might think that that’s micromanaging, but in reality, that’s like on the job training, that’s in the weeds, that’s doing the work. And so that’s why I say that sometimes micromanaging isn’t always bad. Like question yourself, am I coming alongside with my employee and getting my hands dirty in the work?

And in my own kind of concern, perceiving that as micromanaging, when in fact that is like a powerful opportunity for me to develop the leader. On the flip side, sometimes because we’re so focused on empowering, I want to empower my people. Sometimes we leave them out by themselves. So empowering actually might be, you might be an absent leader. I think I’m not going to get involved, I’m going to let them do it on their own, but have you questioned, are they equipped?

Have I given them the skills and the tools to do the job? Because if I haven’t, I’m absent. I’m not empowering them. It’s like saying that I’m gonna let my six year old sit at home by himself. He’s not yet had the skills and the tools and training to stay home by himself. So I’m not gonna be seen as an empowering parent. I’m gonna be seen as an absent parent because he’s not yet ready for that. So I think as a leader, you have to kind of think about that continuum and it changes.

Josh Becerra (12:23.713)

Jennifer Jones (12:53.45)
I could have a leader today that is well adept in the role, knows what he or she is doing, and I can empower them, I give them direction, go knock the wall down. But I could potentially challenge them in a new arena that is gonna require me now to get into sausage making. So you have to like, that doesn’t all, that continuum constantly changes. I think the most effective leader tries to figure out on a real time basis where I should be with that individual at that particular moment.

So I’d always challenge people before you dismiss micromanaging, make sure that you’ve got a person that doesn’t need you to do the sausage making and you’ve actually given it the long term. So that was the, that’s the continuation.

Josh Becerra (13:37.11)
You know, what I love about having that kind of frame or the continuum very explicitly presented is it gives you almost like a shared language or nomenclature that then you can use with, you know, like a direct report or a direct report can use with their manager to say like, hey, I actually need you to lean in here a little bit because I don’t really know what you’re asking me to do. I love that you’ve got it so distilled down where there’s a real ease in both directions for a manager to say, look, I’m leaning in because of these reasons. And they’re like, that can allow for a conversation to unfold so that both parties are kind of on the same page. Because yeah, I feel like in some instances you need to be on one end or the other of that continuum and that sometimes involves a conversation. So having a shared language is really cool.

Jennifer Jones (14:43.13)
That’s right. It’s interesting. One thing, one thing I think that the pandemic gave a gift to leaders is I, you know, I tell people all the time, I’ve probably spent more time with my people, my entire department post pandemic than pre. Because if you think about it pre pandemic, I might’ve showed up in the office and I might’ve been relegated to a conference room for the vast majority of the day. And hopefully I could get out and kind of walk the floor. But for the most part, I was like meeting to meeting, meeting to meeting.

It’s a lot easier to jump into a virtual meeting. It’s a lot easier, right? I think that dynamic is different. I think another dynamic that’s different, I was in a networking group and this lady says, I know she’s so powerful. She said, like this virtual environment has literally leveled the playing field, meaning there’s no head of the table. Everyone’s box is the same box. And so I think early on in the pandemic, I had to begin to announce, hey, listen, I’m gonna be getting into sausage making. And so now I had more folks being more comfortable with kind of me being present in those environments because I had announced, because to your point, we had a shared language. So when JJ, the VP showed up, as long as they understood, listen, I don’t expect to show up to something perfect. I’m coming in there to help you do the work. To your point, it kind of takes the apprehension off from the folks because they know the purpose of why I’m participating in the work versus I’m not coming in.

Josh Becerra (16:11.038)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. So you’d mentioned Simon Sinek earlier and the Infinite Game.

And I think one of the things about the infinite game is, you know, there aren’t really winners and losers. You’re more like it because you just love the game. Right. And so this, like, when you think about teams, when you think about like individuals, it’s like, how can you get them to love their jobs? Um, not just like their jobs, but like love the process of, of the work and the process of their jobs. So what are your thoughts about getting people to love their jobs. Is that realistic you think?

Jennifer Jones (16:51.726)
Yeah. I think it is. And I’ll say, I mean, I think one of the gifts of, you know, the transition I made to TIDI now seven years ago was I felt probably for the first time in my career, because it was a smaller company, we were, you know, P.E. back trying to rebuild it. We got to put TIDI on the map. I was able to see myself at work. And I think for part of the beauty of life of getting people to love their job is that they should be able to see themselves in the output, see themselves in the work. And some of that goes down to trusting the team that’s closest to the work, right? The last thing that I should do as a leader that’s not spending all of my time, 40 hours a week, on one particular category is listen to the folks that are. I think sometimes people don’t love what they do because they’re kind of a cause in the wheel just being told what to do and then they collect their check and they go home. So I think what’s really important for me as a leader is to ensure that I’m empowering those that are closest to the work to do what they feel is best, and also give them permission to try something and fail, right? Because they’re gonna learn through that. And I think part of the reason why people don’t love what they do is because failure is not accepted. And then it’s not seen as a lesson, a learning opportunity. And so they’re too afraid to fail, so they second guess everything they do and they only do with their tone. And so I think it’s really important to give people permission to fail, which in my opinion is permission to learn, but also empower them, assuming that they are equipped with the skills, resources and tools and support them to do the work that we’re asking them to do. So, you know, my job as a leader is to cast the vision and to you know, support the team. I tell people, oftentimes my purpose here is to clear the way so great work can manifest. I’m not the one that’s doing the great work. I’m not, right? Because I’m not close enough to the customers every day. I’m not driving the crosswalks of conversation or having to move strategy forward. But I am the one that can make sure they’ve got there very quickly, they’ve got the resources and quite frankly, the direction so they can do amazing things. And so I think as a leader, I think oftentimes we get in the way of people loving their job because we’re in the way. We’re trying to dictate too much instead of just empowering the folks that are closest to the work. And if you’re a leader, most often it’s not you. If it is, then you’re probably not a leader.

Josh Becerra (19:23.274)
Yeah, I think one of the things that I’ve seen is this idea that you can learn from failure, that we talk about there’s data in failure, right? That’s what we talk about. But that mindset has to carry all the way up the chain, right? Like that’s, I think, where I’ve seen marketers kind of have hiccups is when they are unable to share that mindset up the chain. Right. So then you, you’ve got kind of at the mid level or maybe even it’s like the CMO who’s like, Hey, you know, there’s data on failure. It’s okay to fail. We learn from failure, but then the CEO is just like, failure is not acceptable. Right. Um, and I think that managing like that,

Jennifer Jones (20:13.986)
Yeah, exactly.

Josh Becerra (20:18.474)
mindset up the chain is like super hard to do sometimes.

Jennifer Jones (20:20.742)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that’s also a gift of where I’m at. I would say, you know, it took me a while to get comfortable with failure being okay, but I would say I have a leader that has encouraged that. And so to your point, it shows me the power of, you know, there’s a book I’ve read, if you could tell I read a lot. One of the books I read is Hearing the Voices. It’s like the voice beyond the principles of Shingo. And one of the things it talks about is that leaders create culture and they do it in everyday decisions. And so it’s like, I’m not gonna be the one who’s gonna drive the work, but I am driving the culture. And so when I think about the space that my leader has given me to experiment, try some things that don’t fail as long as I can show that we’ve learned, because he’s given me that permission, I can pay it forward. I think that’s the reason why, specifically in our environment, the team is thriving because it’s okay. What’s interesting though, Josh, is that I often feel like I have to like rehab people because they come to me with so much baggage that it’s like, it’s okay, try it. If it fails, it sounds great. What did you learn? I’ve got to get people comfortable with it being okay because unfortunately I don’t get them all fresh out of college, right? They’ve all kind of been, they’ve gone through their war wounds with other organizations.

Josh Becerra (21:32.611)
Yeah, I mean, I characterize it sometimes as like, literally like PTSD. People show up and they’re just like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want to do that because what if it doesn’t work? And, it’s okay. You’re going to be okay.

Jennifer Jones (21:44.258)
Yes. Legitimate. Legitimate, for sure. Completely agree.

Josh Becerra (21:58.486)
So, you know, we talked a little bit about trying to influence the mindset up the chain. And, you know, as well as I do, that CMOs have like the shortest longevity of anyone in the C-suite. When we were talking earlier, prepping for this, you talked about how you see marketing as the hub in the middle of the wheel, and how you see the job of marketing leaders to get the entire organization to move towards the customer while not having control necessarily. So this is entirely about a marketer or CMO’s ability to influence the organization. So can you talk a little bit about what you mean by the hub in the middle of the wheel and how you see this related to CMO longevity?

Jennifer Jones (22:39.588)
Yeah. So I think, I think, I, especially for new marketers, I explained to them that, you know, if you think about a hub, like we’re the cornerstone of this is marketing. We own the voice of the customer, but from us, there’s these different spokes. So it’s quality, it’s sales, it’s regulatory, it’s, um, it’s customer service. And the interesting thing is if you look at that hub, like we are, we are likely the only resource or the only function in the business that touches every single other function and our job is literally to create enough momentum in the organization to move us toward the customer. So a couple of things have to happen. One, we have to understand where the customer’s at. We have to be able to stand flat-footed and say, this is what our customer sees as value, and here’s how we need to get there. The other part is we also have to understand the priorities and also the focus of function. So for example, in a regulatory environment, in a med device environment,

We’ve been focusing on a lot of changes in the regulatory environment. So our quality and regulatory team has been saddled with a lot of that work. So we have to be mindful of that as we’re thinking about moving the organization towards the customer. And I think oftentimes if you think about CMO longevity or just marketing longevity in general, I think first and foremost, marketers sometimes get really wooed away by the fun things of marketing, but we don’t want to do the basic blocking and tackling meaning. I don’t know, it’s kind of cool to do search engine optimization, but if you don’t know your customer, then what are you optimizing? So I think sometimes we miss the fundamentals by chasing the cool factor. And so I think, you know, what I say to my team often, it’s a little bit different now is that if it’s been like a couple months and you’ve not talked to a customer, like you failed, right? And I’m not saying you have to be in some, like the beauty of the pandemic is now we’re able to engage with customers more readily virtually than like in their environment and a little bit of both. But you have to be constantly talking to customers and like, like our industry isn’t the only one that’s changed rapidly. So if you think that what you thought two years ago is still relevant today, like you’ve missed the boat. So I think first and foremost, you’ve got to be embedded with the customer.

I think a lot of times people, especially now, I have to watch myself. We get into these roles of high level leadership in the marketing organization and we disconnect from the market because we’re so focused on the company. And so we lose our passion to really guide the business towards the company. I think the second area for marketers is you have to, because you’re influencing people, like everybody’s not you. Like mission critical, like you need to get to know what influence or what causes the people you need to influence to take. And so that takes time, it takes patience, that takes willingness to accept that not everyone’s wired or thinking like you, and you have to meet them where they’re at. All of that takes a lot of time.

I think the other dynamic with marketing and I quite frankly, I experienced it here when I transitioned to TIDI is the way I marketed in a large med device organization, all the tools and resources in the process, I brought that baggage to TIDI. And I didn’t, I had to take the time and say, okay, like, maybe I want to rebrand the company, but the company’s not ready for that. So sometimes as marketing leaders that have had a variety of really good experiences, we just want to repeat the playbook in this new company. And we haven’t taken the time to really understand like, what can the company do? Which I think is why we struggle with longevity. So either the CMO gets frustrated because everything that they want to do, that’s their normal playbook and they’re unwilling to change.

They’re tired of bumping up against the wall or the organization is tired of them, like trying to take them places that they’re not ready. So I think like the power of influence is I’m just going to influence you with my way. I shouldn’t influence you to the best outcome for both the customer and the organization. I think sometimes that’s where we miss it. That’ll be my opinion.

Josh Becerra (26:59.716)
Yeah, that’s gold right there. I really appreciate you sharing that. Because I do feel like many times you’re not paying enough attention to like where the, where the company is at and what the company can actually accomplish in however long the time. And just operating from like this standard playbook that worked over here is not going to always work in the new context. So anyway, that was cool. I really appreciate that. So you’ve been, you’ve been talking about a lot of books.

Jennifer Jones (27:34.194)
That’s right. No, of course. Yeah, I know. I’ve named a few.

Josh Becerra (27:40.406)
I love asking, I love asking about books and thought leaders. So who are your go to podcast thought leaders books? Tell us.

Jennifer Jones (27:46.458)
Yeah, sure. Sure. So I would say, I would say like my go to, I’m not, I know this is crazy coming from someone that runs a podcast. I’m not a big podcast listener. I usually don’t, I’m more of a reader, but I am, I do attend the global leadership conference, every year. And so I would say that conference has really, people ask me like, what’s been the most impactful part of my leadership development has literally been that conference. Because between, you know, just the variety of speakers from all facets of life, church, business, government. It’s just been, it has been a gift for me, honestly. And to be quite frank, I’ve actually been introduced to a lot of the people I read as a result of that conference. So I would say that for me is, is like gold when it comes to leadership development. From a book perspective, I’ve got a few.

I think first and foremost, one book that has really changed my perspective on how I focus, not only myself but my team, is Essentialism. I think the most powerful thing about that book is how to say no better. And I think this is something marketers struggle with, right? We want to chase the fun stuff, but then we have all those people on the wheel that want us to do something. And so how do I prioritize my yes? And so I think that book has really helped me get control of my schedule, get control of my priorities, and quite frankly, move my organization forward.

So that’s been a huge book. One of the other books that I read, right at the height of the pandemic, was Think Again. And I would say that book was really important because I think, you know, being in med devices, it was hard for me to think about life on the other side of a pandemic. Because in the med device arena, we’re one of the last industries that are still relying on people to walk into a facility and generate awareness. Right. And so how was I going to like, like change our thinking? All my markers are basically med device pedigree, right? So how was I going to help us think differently about engaging directly with end users? And so I think the book is really challenging. How do we come out of the box? How do we, how do we try, try things and maybe fail, but learn through the process?

How do we negotiate and help folks that are very much not willing to think again to think differently? I would say that book was really impactful. And then I would say a couple more that have been more personally impactful for me, the subtle art of not giving a, you know, great book. I avoided it for many years because I was just afraid it’s going to be full of expletives, but it actually was a very good book about what I think about the role I play and where do I actually focus my efforts? And I think Josh, for me, it has reaffirmed my passion around leadership development because that’s really what I care about. Because I can, Josh, I can walk into any environment. It could be a business, it could be a nonprofit, it could be a church. And I can see failures in leadership. And reality is, it’s often because those leaders were not supported, developed and equipped. And that’s like where my passion is at.

Like how can we do that better? So I think that book kind of held that in. And the last thing, the last book, late because I’ve read a lot recently, that I just finished was actually this book here. And I think it ties back to what we just talked about, the first 90 days. And so it’s really talking about how do you go through change and how do you navigate? So think about, we talked about the CMO, how do you really do a better job of understanding the alliances you need to build, understanding the organization, understanding like what is the current state of the business and what are you being asked to do and how is that going to influence your track and I would say After reading this I know I’ve failed a few times when I transition but I would suggest anyone that’s going through a promotion new business new role, whatever should read it.

Josh Becerra (31:54.102)
I love it. Well Jennifer this has been an amazing episode. I have so appreciated you sharing your thoughts and ideas with us and we’re gonna wrap it up for today but thanks again for being my guest.

Jennifer Jones (32:02.196)
Thanks for having me.

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